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Post by julio on Jul 25, 2012 21:37:01 GMT -6
They didn't have a choice. Why should there be more victims? That's what this is. I agree with everything said against this. The fine is straight, but the rest is just trying to calm people down.
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Post by richsapper on Jul 25, 2012 22:43:52 GMT -6
So players have a choice to stay or go? Great, but there are only so many diision 1 teams, only so many scholorships to go around, etc. If they find a place, and many will, on another team, who will not get an opportunity. Now the damage spreads to other schools. It's bad enough that the lost football revenue will cash strap other sports. I'm with Julio: fine the University. The trustees may hold some culpability in this, so fine. But taking away the opportunity for 20 athletes a year to get an education (because, let's not forget that is what college is REALLY for), keeping kids that had nothing to do with this from having a chance to play in bowl games, etc makes no sense. I am on the fence about stripping the victories. Not sure how I feel about that. I guess it's fine, but again this had nothing to do with competition, so I don't know. Again, those who are gulity have been or are being punished. Sandusky is the ONLY one who touched these kids and he will die in jail. Paterno is dead. The others involved in any cover up will never work in their field again and will ;likely end up with some criminal consequences as well. Only Jerry Sandusky did this. Not the third string lineman who has always dreamed of playing for Penn State who was in elementary school when this happened, or the new head coach who was barely started coaching.
Still, in all of this, no one was has been able to tell me how ANY of this is justice for the victims. I seriously doubt that most of them would be in favor of this to be honest. Just guessing. You want your pound of flesh? Fine, just make those responsible pay and those without responsibility stay unscathed. I want that too. I have two sons. Trust me, if this would have happened to them, I would go after those involved myself, but I would not want any one else to get hurt who was not.
In addition, no one has even addressed the analogies that I used. Priest molests a kid, so you remove them, they are in jail, but then you shut down the Parish? No. There may be a lawsuit, but that is decided by a court. I doubt the diocese would shut it down. This would happen in no other segment of society.
The NCAA overstepped it's bounds. They usually do.
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Post by apollo on Jul 26, 2012 10:48:01 GMT -6
Once again for over 20 years Penn State Officials and Joe Pa allowed a Child Molester in there locker room, on their sidelines at the Alamo Bowl with a minor- who was taken over state lines and molested - convicted by a jury on this, getting jerseys from star players for Sandusky to give to his victims, Sandusky wrote a book called Touched how sick is that, and had knowledge and a eyewitness report of it going on from a graduate asst coach in 2001 and it wasn't dealt with again. Either you have ethics and institutional control or you don't, they didn't and if Penn State didn't agree to the sanctions it would have been a 4 yr Death Penalty. Victims and their families have rights and these players can stay and get a Penn State Degree or they can play somewhere else. If they can play substantially at Penn State they can play at any school for the most part and it's not like USC at all, they can even transfer in the Big Ten and you can't tell me that most of Penn State's roster isn't better then Indiana, Illinois, Purdue, Northwestern, or Minnesota that's why 8 Illini Asst Coaches were seen in a Restaurant Parking Lot near Nittany Lion campus yesterday - with only 80 scholarships currently the Illini have 5 open scholarships in the Tim Beckman era after Ron Zook to use and why USC also wants there top RB, they have choices and the victims and their families didn't thanks to Joe Pa and his bosses. Penn State is not Ball State these players have choices, what choices were given to these young children and their families? This will scar them the rest of their life?
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Post by apollo on Jul 27, 2012 6:27:37 GMT -6
Three schools Michigan State, Illinois, and Purdue are actively pursuing Penn State players, in some cases near the campus and the Penn State Players phones are ringing off the hook, so I guess the avaliability of scholarship question is no longer in play and it is open season and USC's Lane Kiffin is doing a a 2hr power point to get there star RB. Some Big Ten Coaches thought it was in bad taste to recruit Penn State Kids, so I guess there is a split in the conference and Ohio State has it's own Bowl Ban too. Why Indiana isn't interested when Purdue and Illinois are is beyond me.
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Post by richsapper on Jul 27, 2012 21:25:47 GMT -6
Yes, and Paterno is dead. DEAD. dead. He is not coming back. Sandusky is in Jail, will die in jail, will not get out. I GUARANTEE that the the victims probably did not want this either. Victims and their families do have rights, but so do the people who had nothing to do with it. Again, the issue is not that there should not be punishment, just put it in the right place. Don't punish innocent people.
Here is my position, which is well known, broken down:
1. Sandusky is the lowest form of scum imaginable. What he did is just about the worst thing that you could possibly do to a person.
2. Paterno and the administrators involved are just as bad for continuing to allow him on campus.
3. The people mentioned in #1 and #2 should be punished.
4. The people mentioned in #! and #2 HAVE been/ARE being/ARE IN THE PROCESS of being punished or dead.
5. Mike McQueary is the only person who should have repercussions who has not yet. He is a horrible human being for not stopping anything.
6. The players at Penn State University were not involved in any way.
7. The students at Penn State University were not involved in any way.
Ok, so now, we will pause. With the exception of #5 which is my opinion, and an opinion of many each of these points in non-debatable. It is fact. I think that there are some divulging opinions from mine as to the scale of some of this, but I think that everyone can agree on what I have said so far.
Ok, push play:
8. I hold that in every instance, 100% of the time, in every aspect of life justice means that the innocent are unaffected and the guilty are punished.
9. Don't like my definition? How 'bout one from the dictionary: Justice (noun) the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause. the administering of deserved punishment or reward.
10. The punishment by the NCAA does not fit this definition (see #6 and #7). Their is nothing equitable about this. Innocent people do not deserve to be punished.
So based on all of this, what should have happened in my opinion is this:
Leave the football program alone from a competition standpoint. This had nothing to do with competition.
Everyone involved should be in jail Sandusky is, more indictments have been handed down. At least one more for McQueary should be. Give them a punishment that fits what they did. I am ALL FOR an eye for an eye.
If the victims want to sue the University, fine. That is their right. If I was on a jury I would likely award the victims money. It doesn't heal anything, but it helps.
I also hold that the NCAA overstepped it's bounds and is WELL outside of it's jurisdiction on this. The NCAA should keep out of anything that does not deal with competition. Period. That also means that I think that they overstepped their bounds on Ohio State. Who cares if kids there got tattoos? They did not go to Ohio State for that reason, can't have jobs, and again it has nothing to do with competition, so SO WHAT? The NCAA makes millions off of these kids, and a fan can't give them a small gift. Stupid.
As far as the scholarship issue for current Penn State players, great. Good for them. They get to go somewhere else. So, then kids who WOULD HAVE gone to Michigan State, Illinois and Purdue don't get a chance now because these Penn State kids take their scholarships. It's not like there are not an infinite number of football scholarships and now there are fewer.
So here is who REALLY gets punished:
Penn State football players, who we can all agree are innocent. Again, who cares if they can transfer?
Penn State students who are innocent because of the financial drain on their school. Don;t forget football brings in a ton of money for the school.
Penn State volleyball, soccer, softball, players, wrestlers, etc. Anyone from a non-revenue sport, because guess what? Football supports them too.
According to what apollo said kids who would have gone Michigan State, Purdue and Illinois, and apparently USC among others who now may lose an opportunity because of a former Penn State player transferring (which by the way, is fine with me if they want to transfer, just understand the fall out.) Just imagine being the kid or parent of a kid who was being recruited by, I don't know, let's say Purdue. Your dream is to play at Purdue. You can't pay the tuition, financial aid doesn't cover it all. Now maybe you decide, well, I guess I will go somewhere else in the Big Ten, well guess what, their scholarships are gone. Now where do you go? You are stuck. Go to the school that you thought you would have a chance to as a student and give up football, or play at a lower level. Hardly seems fair does it?
Competition. Holy crap the Big Ten is starting to look like garbage. Between the Ohio State and Penn State sanctions, the fact that Indiana and Northwestern can;t put together good teams, the Big Team is a shadow of it's former self.
Fans: See above.
Now, who DOESN'T Get punished by the NCAA: Jerry Sandusky Joe Paterno (ok, maybe a little since the victories were vacated) Mike McQuery anyone else involved
Now whose life gets better?
The victims? Doubtful. They don't gain anything here. Not only that, but I seriously doubt that they would want this to happen. These kids (now adults) were Penn State fans too, and I am sure they probably still were. Plus, this does not right ANY wrong done to them.
Logically, I don;t know how anyone could support this.
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Post by julio on Jul 27, 2012 22:26:13 GMT -6
I still think they should play. richsapper you are on the right road.
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Post by crowntownmike on Jul 27, 2012 22:28:45 GMT -6
You are all wrong! Close it down! Burn the school like the hell it was for those poor boys. Never let anyone play again. The whole sports should be shut down forever. Pennsylvania perverts. I saw those child rape accomplices crying. Close them down for good.
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Post by soccermomrogers on Jul 28, 2012 13:20:17 GMT -6
I am sad to see what happened. My husband told me all about the story, and I read some about it too. I think that it seems like everyone is getting punished for what 1 man did. This is a very sick man who needs help. I think it is very sad.
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Post by richsapper on Jul 29, 2012 12:44:04 GMT -6
I love it when people who are closest to the sport agree with me. Gerry DiNardo was added to the laundry list of analysts, former coaches, etc who have gone on record as saying the NCAA overstepped their bounds.
On thing that I didn't think about was vultures. You would think that, even though I know it is their job to win, that other coaches would not try to poach players from Penn State. That may be why only 3 Big Ten teams have gone on record as actively recruiting these kids. The other probably find it repugnant.
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Post by julio on Jul 30, 2012 20:13:24 GMT -6
You are all wrong! Close it down! Burn the school like the hell it was for those poor boys. Never let anyone play again. The whole sports should be shut down forever. Pennsylvania perverts. I saw those child rape accomplices crying. Close them down for good. Are you crazy?
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Post by indianbacker on Jul 30, 2012 20:32:28 GMT -6
I can not believe what I miss when I am not here. I am in the middle of this arguement. I think the NCAA was right to do something. I also think that what they did was too much. I think they were right to make them forfeit what they did and take Joe Pa's statue down. The fine should have happened but the bowl band and taking scholorships away was too much. They should have reacted but they went to far.
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Post by apollo on Jul 31, 2012 7:52:29 GMT -6
Back up QB Bolden going to LSU, Looks like starting RB to USC.
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Post by richsapper on Jul 31, 2012 21:53:00 GMT -6
Back up QB Bolden going to LSU, Looks like starting RB to USC. and so it begins.....
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Post by crowntownmike on Aug 1, 2012 11:31:26 GMT -6
Good. I hope they all leave and they have to have their gymnastics team suit up. Burn in Hell Penn State.
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Post by apollo on Aug 1, 2012 12:47:32 GMT -6
Backup TE to Florida State.
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