6A Football & "Tradition" Factor

[Admin75]

From the IHSAA: The IHSAA Executive Committee approved a portion of an Indiana Football Coaches Association (IFCA) proposal in adding a sixth classification to the football state tournament beginning in 2013-14.

In news that effects football as well as other sports: The Committee also voted in favor of a two-year tournament success factor in each team sport (baseball, basketball, football, soccer, softball volleyball), an accumulation of points by which any school would move up one class based on tournament series performance during that time.

What do you think of the changes?

[richsapper]

On the Tradition factor: It's still a bad idea. It's part of an overwhelming problem with America. Everything has to be fair. Well life isn't fair. It's no wonder with everything being so watered down that we are barley in the top 25 in math and science... scores. It is no wonder that everything is less productive that it was, because every thing has to be "fair" What is that teaching kids? You are great, you work hard, you win championships, and, oh by the way, we are going to punish you for that by making you play bigger schools. People think this will corral privates and parochial schools, but look at really successful public schools. Maybe you have a great group of kids who is really talented. They all graduate and because they were good the kids who were underclassmen maybe were not as good. Now THOSE KIDS have to play the tougher competition. This will come back to bite them watch.

[indianbacker]

It means Portage will still play the schools that we always play, except maybe Chesterton from what I read. How does that help us just because of our size.

The tradition thing is good though. It will stop the Catholic schools from cheating like they do. I hope it does hurt them.

[richsapper]

You are right indianbacker, Chesterton has the most to gain from this in the region. LaPorte & Michigan City as well. Without the other Duneland schools to play, it becomes a little easier competition up north. As I read it these schools, along with Munster would be 5A. If they are doing the top 32 in 6A I guess the next 32 might be 5A which would move EC back up to 5A since they are currently the 64th largest school.

Imagine that potential sectional: Chesterton, LaPorte, Michigan City, Munster and EC. Apparently there will be a first round bye in all 5A and 6A schools so it it likely or at least very possible that it could happen. As it stands now, it would seems like it might be Chesterton's to lose.

It seems like the 6A sectional up in the Region could be Lake Central, Merrillville, Valpo, Crown Point, and Portage. No real change there. Whoever won that sectional would most likley have to still face Penn in a regional. Of course, if I am right about the NWI 6A sectional, then Penn is in really bad shape. The 6A teams closet to them (other than the Region) are Northrup, Homestead, Snider and Warsaw. Aslo Lafayette Jeff would currently be 6A and has no schools that close to them. The Northern 6A teams would be all over the place, save potentially the region schools. Not a great idea.

The dominant 5A teams will still be the dominant 6A teams and 5A will be seriously watered down. I am not sure what this helps.

[tommy]

Here's what the sectionals are probably going to be next season:

Class 6A

Sectional 1:
Crown Point
Lafayette Jefferson
Lake Central
Merrillville

Sectional 2:
Penn
Portage
Valpo
Warsaw

Class 5A

Sectional 9:
Chesterton
La Porte
Michigan City
Munster

East Chicago will probably stay down in 4A either from a decrease in enrollment or getting bumped down by a 4A team moving up to 5A under the success factor program.

[Admin75]

Tommy, What you are saying is a strong possibility. I didn't see until today that the sectionals would be 4 teams (not sure how I missed it) but what you say makes sense. There is talk that Portage rather than Lafayette Jeff would be in Sectional 1, Jeff would be in 2 in a wide spread sectional. I am fine with there being 6A, but they should have just realigned the whole thing so that they would have no first round bye. I guess it gives the 5A kids a chance to go to a game on a Friday night. I don't know.

What was lost in the original story was the concept of a seeded sectional. The thing trhat fans, schools, coaches and players want more than anything was voted down.

[julio]

How will this work for Hammond, the rest of the Hammond schools and the schools that we play like Griffith or Lowell?

[richsapper]

Unless any of the schools you mentioned go far into the tournament two years in a row, there should be no effect.

[richsapper]

Here is part of a editorial that will be in this months MAB Monthly as well as something I was talking about on another board about this that kind of sums it up:


I am thinking more along the lines of when you have a talented class come through and then they are gone and those kids who may not be as talented are left to pick up the pieces. There are countless examples, but let me give you two: 

From 1998-2001, Tri-West was an average high school football team. They had some great talent and some good wins, but the records were average to below average. Nothing against the kids on the teams, but the results are the results. In the last year of that stretch, they were a respectable 6-5, but lost in the sectional semi-final that year. Then a great class matured and in 2003, Tri-West was 14-1 and won a state title. In reality, all that separated them from perfection was a 4 point loss earlier in the season to Frankfort. In 04, second verse, same as the first...only this time they WERE 15-0 winning another state title. In those two years, they would have accumulated 8 points if I read it right and would have gone up a class. Ok, now here is where it gets tricky. Tri-West would have moved up to 3A in 2005 if this system would been in place. Here is the problem though, that 05 team was great (11-2), won a sectional and then lost in the Regional. That of course was a 2A regional. The following season, they were 3-7. Again, no disrespect to the kids at all. I know they played hard and tried their best, but if this is about fairness, how would it be fair to put a team that lost most of their experienced players and saddle the class that was 3-7 for example with playing in 3A? To me, fairness is not the issue, it was just done to shut up all of the private/parochial/charter opponents out there. That's why I used a public school team to illustrate my point.

Ok, here is a second one. Evansville Memorial. The Tigers are always solid. In 2008 and 2009 the won back to back southern semi-states, but were not able to get past Bellmont and West Lafayette respectively. Outstanding seasons to be sure. Two semi-state titles in a row gives them 6 points, and look, now Memorial is a 4A team under this system. The problem is that they has some graduation losses and a less experienced club in 2010 in started the season 3-4, before rattling off four wins in a row and a trip to the sectional championship, which they lost (in 3A of course). In 2011, a 4-5 regular season team fared a bit better in the tournament and won a sectional title before falling in the regional.

As my point hopefully has become more clear, high school sports is cyclical. You have great classes sometimes, others you are more inexperienced and results are not as good. The kids in the classes behind those great classes have to play bigger schools, and are not in the same position to handle them as the teams before them. 

[jtjrmoney8]

Lets look at the RECENT history of the tournament..you can call it what you want but the teams that are dominating are parochial schools..LCC, Luers, Chatard, and Cathedral are all the dominant teams in their classes..5A is basically whichever MIC school can make it out of the south

Here is the thing..these schools never have down years..every single season they are ALL in contention for a championship..this season can anyone honestly say that any of the 4 parochial schools mentioned above are NOT the favorites in their respective class???

LCC, even with the graduation losses are still going to be a force in 1A..they dominated every 1A team they played last year..the gap will be closer but they will still be the favorite

Luers plays a 4-5A schedule all season long and then coasts through the 2A tournament

Chatard same story..they play up almost every week but then play in 3A

Cathedral is playing all the tough Indy schools plus trips to Ohio to play their elite teams..then the routine dominance of 4A in the playoffs


Yes, the other schools in each class SHOULD get better..however, I think this change MIGHT help bring back more interest to the high school game..there will be more parody

[richsapper]

Right, but here is what you are missing...Each of these teams plays very tough competition as you said. They all play schools that are bigger and make them better. They do not have sacrificial lambs on the schedule that are there for the taking. They do what they need to get better. Cathedral has not won every year, and they had a long stretch without a title. With LCC and maybe even Luers you are probably right, but anything could happen: see Andrean vs Wheeler last season.

Plus, don't forget in cities like Indianapolis, South Bend, Fort Wayne, Hammond, and Gary to name a few they have open enrollment. Roy Richards is a great coach, but it is no coincidence that Morton is the best team in Hammond every year in just about every sport. He is not doing anything wrong, but kids and parent have a choice.

Many public schools take tuition students too, and there have been players on most teams that have won titles that are not from the district they played in. In Illinois it went so far as to speculate which high school an 8th grade basketball player was going to, and all of them were public.

The point is, just get better. Public schools, the private schools (of which there are MANY) who have not won a title, just need to get better. Heck Cathedral doesn't even have it's own field, their facilities are not as good as many of the public schools in the area, but they win anyway. The schools who don't win as much should look to them as an example, not vilify them.

[indianbacker]

This doesn't change anything for us really. We will still win state!

[jtjrmoney8]

You could put together an all-star team of all the best players in the region and they still wouldn't win state in 5A..Penn is still better than every team around here and they had their doors blown off by Carmel last year

[crowntownmike]

Wow, this is a very nice board. I don't know how I feel about 6A for Crown Point yet. We will be good, but we are in the same trolley either way. The only difference is that the sectional gets harder without Michigan City, Chesterton and Munster in it. They are good teams, but not as good as the teams we will still have to play.

[jtjrmoney8]

If Tommy is correct with his projections for 6A then OUCH..Sectional 1 is a gauntlet with the exception of Lafayette Jeff..they haven't been relavent for a few years now..but the other 3 teams are top notch programs